“It does my heart good that sermons and outreach are more important than the music. Don’t get me wrong, the music is great, but not the reason to go to church.”
This short post with link led to quite a dialog. One never knows when the opportunity to present biblical teaching will present itself. Here’s the thread, which leads me to encourage all Christians to be prepared always to share/explain gospel truth):
Mr. Argumentative:
You walk out of church feeling good about yourself; you’re attending the wrong church. That’s the problem with today’s church. Most pastors spew ear candy, not truth. They talk about “love” and that God has a plan for you, but never preach about sin, Hell, or repentance. Pastors have become Tony Robbins, ignoring the gospel. That’s why churches are full of carnal Christians like Paul talked about in Corinthians 3:1. We’re sinners, not producing fruit for God. The church needs to teach how wicked we are, not how great we are. Shame on us for not reading or knowing the Word. Jesus told us beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Mr. Corrective:
I agree we’re not consistently teaching Who God truly is. The liberal church has mixed up the order of things. We’re led to believe God’s there to give us what we want. But in reality, we’re to be there for God and do what He wants. God wants to have a personal relationship with us, and for us to spread the gospel making disciples. You’re right that we sin, but when we trust Jesus and repent, we’re a new man in Christ. We then become saints – who sadly choose to sin. That’s why we need sanctification (a lifelong process). We’re saved by grace through faith, going from sinner to saint (still battling sin). In the natural, yes, we’re bad; but in Christ we’re good because Christ is good.
Mr. Argumentative:
Guilt has nothing to do with the pastor. That’s between you and God. It’s the first step in repentance. You can’t be a believer if you have no remorse for your sins. The pastor’s just the messenger. If you walk out of church feeling good about yourself, you’ve got the wrong messenger. He isn’t speaking the Word of God.
Mr. Corrective:
I agree you need to understand the bad news before you can appreciate the gospel, but let’s not forget that the gospel is Good News, and if you leave church filled with guilt every week, your pastor’s failing you. Are you saved by what you do, or by what Christ did for you? You’ll repent because you’re saved. There’s a fine line between guilt and repentance. Jesus came to bring you abundant life, not a guilt-filled one. God doesn’t expect you to go around feeling like you’re a miserable loser. We’re victors in Christ.
Mr. Argumentative:
“Neither, for by grace you are saved through faith, it’s a gift from God, not of works” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Acts 2:38 shows you must repent before being saved: “Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” Jesus came to give us eternal life in Heaven, not “abundance” of life on Earth. In fact, Jesus said, “If you follow Me, you’ll be persecuted”; doesn’t sound like an abundance of life. You don’t go around feeling miserable when you’re walking in God’s grace. If I’m wrong, you’ll need to quote me Scripture on your belief. We’re only victors in Christ when we perform His will.”
Mr. Corrective:
John 10:7-18. “If we only dwell on the sin, then we may miss the Good News.”
Mr. Argumentative:
“Life” in the Bible means “Eternal Life”. John says in 1 John 5:11-12, “And this is the testimony: that God’s given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who doesn’t have the Son of God doesn’t have life.” Life doesn’t mean life on earth. Earth is Satan’s kingdom. That’s how he could offer it to Jesus when he tempted Jesus.
Mr. Corrective:
Doesn’t eternal life include our life here on Earth? Where we spend eternity depends on how we live here on Earth. If we believe/follow Christ, our eternity will be in Heaven. So, it boils down to our relationship with God. The closer we are with Him, the better we’ll become.
Mr. Argumentative:
Doesn’t sound like Jesus talked about the “Good News” in Matthew 10:28 to me. “And don’t fear those who kill the body but can’t kill the soul. Rather fear Him Who’s able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” I’m guessing most people haven’t heard this verse preached, or much else concerning the other verses about hell. It’s all about the “Good News”.
Mr. Corrective:
He says if you acknowledge Jesus, then He’ll acknowledge you to the Father. That sounds pretty “good” to me. Too often we’re afraid of the world when we should fear God. Man is able to physically kill the body, but only God can kill the soul. So, we do need conviction, but we still need hope – which is the Good News. Being convicted of sin leads to progression in sanctification.
Mr. Argumentative:
You need to help me understand Matthew 7:21-23: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, haven’t we prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And I’ll declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
Mr. Corrective:
It might be helpful to mention that “gospel” is the translation of the Greek noun “euangelion” (occurring 76 times), meaning “good news”, and the verb “euangelizo” (occurring 54 times), meaning “to bring or announce good news”. So, “good news” = “gospel”.
Mr. Argumentative:
I’m not saying it isn’t good news. Who wouldn’t want eternal life? I showed you in the Bible that there’s also bad news for unbelievers and carnal Christians.
Mr. Corrective:
We all have eternal life no matter what, the question is where we spend it. The bad news you talk about is to help us see what’s wrong in the world, and to help us stay on the right path. It also helps those who don’t believe, or those just going through the motions, to see the error of their ways.
Mr. Argumentative:
If all have eternal life no matter what, then who were the people Jesus spoke to in Matthew 7:21, “Depart from Me, I never knew you”? They’re clearly believers in Christ. Why didn’t they get eternal life?
Mr. Corrective:
What’s meant by the previous comment is that the Bible doesn’t teach annihilationism. In other words, the lost aren’t totally destroyed so as to not exist. Instead, they continue to ‘live’ in the torment of Hell. However, to your point, this isn’t ‘life’ in the same sense that the New Testament often speaks of it. Eternal life in Christ is real life, flourishing life, life in the favorable presence of God. That’s truly living!
Mr. Argumentative:
Revelation 22:19 states that names can be removed from the Book of Life. You can’t get your name in the Book of Life if you haven’t been chosen by God and been saved. How do we know if a person is truly saved or not?
Mr. Corrective:
The Bible teaches that one knows they’re saved by their changed life producing fruit. God makes promises to us, and I stand on them. I know I’m saved because I’m not the person I used to be. I’m now a child of God and a saint. Do I still sin? Yes. Am I convicted of that sin? Yes. Does God forgive me? Yes. God wants us to live full and abundant lives, and tells us the pathway for this is following Jesus. We do this is by praying, studying Scripture, and in so doing strengthen our relationship with God. The stronger our relationship the more abundant and fuller our lives become. An abundant life in the world looks different than the one in the spiritual world within which Christians live. But in the end, it’s not up to us to decide who’s saved and who isn’t. It’s up to us to be right with God, evangelize, and make disciples.
Mr. Argumentative:
Show me Scripture that supports your thesis.
Mr. Corrective:
Are you asking about the comment regarding annihilationism? Assuming annihilationism is the issue, I’ll borrow from J.I. Packer: “Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. After all, only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Moreover, Luke 16:22–24 shows that, as in a good deal of extrabiblical apocalyptic literature, fire signifies continued existence in pain. The chilling words of Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and of Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this. In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Paul explains, or extends, the meaning of ‘punished with everlasting [eternal, aionios] destruction’ by adding ‘and shut out from the presence of the Lord’— which, by affirming exclusion, rules out the idea that ‘destruction’ meant extinction. Only those who exist can be excluded. It’s often been pointed out that in Greek the natural meaning of the destruction vocabulary (noun, olethros; verb, apollumi) is ‘wrecking’, so that what’s destroyed is henceforth nonfunctional rather than annihilated altogether”.
Mr. Argumentative:
Amen brother! I admit, too often we forget God’s already won the victory through the blood of Christ. The thief on the cross acknowledged who Jesus was and Jesus said, “Today you’ll be with Me in paradise”. We need to remember who we are in Christ, and pursue a closer relationship with God; living our lives accordingly.
Mr. Corrective:
This has been a great dialog. Love it! I particularly like the back-and-forth about the importance of both “good news” and “bad news”. Without an understanding of the bad news (all have sinned and deserve eternal death) there’s no context for the Good News (Jesus paid the penalty of death for those who are His). Pointing out the “bad” is part of proclaiming the “good”. And once a person is born again, they celebrate the victory of Christ! So, if our hearts aren’t convicted, then our pastors have fallen short – and if the hearts of Christians aren’t encouraged, then our pastors have fallen short. The ENTIRE gospel MUST be preached – both reprobation and redemption – to the glory of God.
Many blessings to you,
Pastor Troy Skinner
